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	<title>Comments on: INSURANCE: A Closer Look At HSAs</title>
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	<description>The Policy Journal of the Health Sphere</description>
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		<title>By: Mayo Clinic, Global Health and Design Thinking: Innovations in Healthcare Experience and Delivery &#124;</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-30984</link>
		<dc:creator>Mayo Clinic, Global Health and Design Thinking: Innovations in Healthcare Experience and Delivery &#124;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 02:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-30984</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] all the answers, or even the correct ones (read his other piece at FastCompany on HSAs where he is at worst wrong about the solution and at best has over simplified the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] all the answers, or even the correct ones (read his other piece at FastCompany on HSAs where he is at worst wrong about the solution and at best has over simplified the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Health Plan Law - ERISA Group Health Plan Administration &#187; Blawgs - A Law Blog Compass And Review</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-13603</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Plan Law - ERISA Group Health Plan Administration &#187; Blawgs - A Law Blog Compass And Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 13:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-13603</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Health Affairs Blog [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Health Affairs Blog [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Health Affairs Blog</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2684</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Affairs Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] INSURANCE: A Closer Look At HSAs by Uwe Reinhardt [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] INSURANCE: A Closer Look At HSAs by Uwe Reinhardt [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Fleming</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2431</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Fleming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 20:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To read a response to Uwe Reinhardt from Dahlia Remler and Sherry Glied, go &lt;a href=&quot;http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/05/02/insurance-remler-and-glied-respond-to-reinhardt-on-hsas/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To read a response to Uwe Reinhardt from Dahlia Remler and Sherry Glied, go <a href="http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/05/02/insurance-remler-and-glied-respond-to-reinhardt-on-hsas/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Health Affairs Blog</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2427</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Affairs Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 15:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Last month in the Health Affairs Blog, Uwe Reinhart correctly points out that our results are not generalizable to all cases. Significantly lower tax rates and/or higher deductibles can generate the conventional result that HSAs generate increased cost-sharing and health expenditure savings. We agree. If HSAs with high deductibles were imposed on the entire population, they would lead (on average) to increased cost-sharing. However, the resulting expenditure reductions would be modest, due to the (desirable) protection of the least healthy people who are responsible for most expenditures. As Reinhardt notes, these plans would disadvantage many lower income and less healthy people. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Last month in the Health Affairs Blog, Uwe Reinhart correctly points out that our results are not generalizable to all cases. Significantly lower tax rates and/or higher deductibles can generate the conventional result that HSAs generate increased cost-sharing and health expenditure savings. We agree. If HSAs with high deductibles were imposed on the entire population, they would lead (on average) to increased cost-sharing. However, the resulting expenditure reductions would be modest, due to the (desirable) protection of the least healthy people who are responsible for most expenditures. As Reinhardt notes, these plans would disadvantage many lower income and less healthy people. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom R McLean</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2397</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom R McLean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HSA and high-deductible health insurance is likely to cause many Americans to tighten their belts. But this does not necessarily mean that Americans will forgo purchasing health care. To the contrary, in a telemedical world there is good reason to believe that cost-conscious patients will purchase more health care from low-cost foreign providers. 

The rise of medical tourism indicates that may patients no longer care about a physician’s education pedigree, nationality or color of the doctor’s skin. Changing provider preference can also be seen with in the increasing numbers of nurse practitioners writing prescriptions. CVS, Walmart and other drug store chains are hiring these practitioners because they attract customer-patients (who want to avoid doctors’ waiting rooms) into their stores and steer business to their pharmacy counters. Today’s patients, it would seem, no longer care if they see a physician so long as their medical problems are solved. In fact, judging by the transient success of mydoc.com (which connected remote patients to an on-line board certified internist who wrote prescriptions over the internet), patients no longer care if their provider is appropriately licensed. 

So suppose Federal Express goes into the health care business. Federal Express could hire physicians in Bangalore to operate a website. These physicians would listen to patients’ histories and do limited examinations of the patients via a web video camera. (Such cameras are now affordable by most people who own a computer.) After making a diagnosis the doctor would write a prescription and charge the patient one-tenth of what an American physician would charge. The Indian physicians would be happy because they would operate at a higher volume. The American patient would be happy because they would spend less out-of-pocket HSA funds and avoid having to wait to see a doctor. Finally, Federal Express would be happy because it would make money delivering the needed medication to the patient by the next morning. (Perhaps by have the drugs ship from Canada.)  

In short, in a global market for health care services the regressive nature of HSA-high deductible insurance does not necessarily mean that patient will forgo needed medical care.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HSA and high-deductible health insurance is likely to cause many Americans to tighten their belts. But this does not necessarily mean that Americans will forgo purchasing health care. To the contrary, in a telemedical world there is good reason to believe that cost-conscious patients will purchase more health care from low-cost foreign providers. </p>
<p>The rise of medical tourism indicates that may patients no longer care about a physician’s education pedigree, nationality or color of the doctor’s skin. Changing provider preference can also be seen with in the increasing numbers of nurse practitioners writing prescriptions. CVS, Walmart and other drug store chains are hiring these practitioners because they attract customer-patients (who want to avoid doctors’ waiting rooms) into their stores and steer business to their pharmacy counters. Today’s patients, it would seem, no longer care if they see a physician so long as their medical problems are solved. In fact, judging by the transient success of mydoc.com (which connected remote patients to an on-line board certified internist who wrote prescriptions over the internet), patients no longer care if their provider is appropriately licensed. </p>
<p>So suppose Federal Express goes into the health care business. Federal Express could hire physicians in Bangalore to operate a website. These physicians would listen to patients’ histories and do limited examinations of the patients via a web video camera. (Such cameras are now affordable by most people who own a computer.) After making a diagnosis the doctor would write a prescription and charge the patient one-tenth of what an American physician would charge. The Indian physicians would be happy because they would operate at a higher volume. The American patient would be happy because they would spend less out-of-pocket HSA funds and avoid having to wait to see a doctor. Finally, Federal Express would be happy because it would make money delivering the needed medication to the patient by the next morning. (Perhaps by have the drugs ship from Canada.)  </p>
<p>In short, in a global market for health care services the regressive nature of HSA-high deductible insurance does not necessarily mean that patient will forgo needed medical care.</p>
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		<title>By: Healthcare Economist &#183; Health Wonk Review</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2028</link>
		<dc:creator>Healthcare Economist &#183; Health Wonk Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 05:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2028</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] In the Health Affairs blog, Princeton economist Uwe Reinhardt takes A closer look at HSAs. Reinhardt writes that HSAs coupled with high-deductible insurance plans amount to “&#8221;rationing by income class.” [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In the Health Affairs blog, Princeton economist Uwe Reinhardt takes A closer look at HSAs. Reinhardt writes that HSAs coupled with high-deductible insurance plans amount to “&#8221;rationing by income class.” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Scandlen</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2016</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Scandlen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Uwe, Uwe, Uwe, let&#039;s first get our facts straight, shall we? 

First, $5,000 HSA deductibles are not allowed under current law, nor are $5,000 HSA contributions. the maximum deductible for an individual in 2007 is $2,850. That is also the maximum contribution (plus an $800 &quot;catch-up&quot; contribution for people age 55+). So Remler and Glied&#039;s hypothesis is actually at the high end of the possibilities.

Next, their hypothetical PPO coverage of $350 deductible with 20% coinsurance to an OOP max of $1,800 is at the low end of the spectrum for PPOs. The most recent KFF/HRET survey places the average PPO deductible at $473 for an individual. (It also found the average HDHP with a savings account deductible was $1,715, btw)

Further, the KFF/HRET survey reveals many cost-sharing provisions in PPOs that few analysts pay attention to -- flat dollar physician visit copays with no OOP limit, per-admission hospital deductibles, per diem hospital copays, etc.. It also found that 21% of workers have no maximum on their OOP costs, and only 54% have a maximum below $2,000.

I don&#039;t remember if Remler and Glied include premiums in their calculations. If they don&#039;t, they should. There is a basic trade-off here -- higher OOP = lower premiums and vice versa. Ain&#039;t nothing magical about it. 

Other than that, I agree with your conclusion that the particular mixture of deductible, coinsurance, and OOP limit (and premium) one pays  &quot;is a matter worth further study and thought.&quot; And that there are additional approaches that are worth throwing into the mix, such as basing contributions on financial need or on risk.

Let&#039;s try it all out and test empirically what mixture produces what results. 

Once we&#039;ve done that, let&#039;s let individual families decide what combination works best for them.

Greg Scandlen
President
Consumers for Health Care Choices]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uwe, Uwe, Uwe, let&#8217;s first get our facts straight, shall we? </p>
<p>First, $5,000 HSA deductibles are not allowed under current law, nor are $5,000 HSA contributions. the maximum deductible for an individual in 2007 is $2,850. That is also the maximum contribution (plus an $800 &#8220;catch-up&#8221; contribution for people age 55+). So Remler and Glied&#8217;s hypothesis is actually at the high end of the possibilities.</p>
<p>Next, their hypothetical PPO coverage of $350 deductible with 20% coinsurance to an OOP max of $1,800 is at the low end of the spectrum for PPOs. The most recent KFF/HRET survey places the average PPO deductible at $473 for an individual. (It also found the average HDHP with a savings account deductible was $1,715, btw)</p>
<p>Further, the KFF/HRET survey reveals many cost-sharing provisions in PPOs that few analysts pay attention to &#8212; flat dollar physician visit copays with no OOP limit, per-admission hospital deductibles, per diem hospital copays, etc.. It also found that 21% of workers have no maximum on their OOP costs, and only 54% have a maximum below $2,000.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember if Remler and Glied include premiums in their calculations. If they don&#8217;t, they should. There is a basic trade-off here &#8212; higher OOP = lower premiums and vice versa. Ain&#8217;t nothing magical about it. </p>
<p>Other than that, I agree with your conclusion that the particular mixture of deductible, coinsurance, and OOP limit (and premium) one pays  &#8220;is a matter worth further study and thought.&#8221; And that there are additional approaches that are worth throwing into the mix, such as basing contributions on financial need or on risk.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s try it all out and test empirically what mixture produces what results. </p>
<p>Once we&#8217;ve done that, let&#8217;s let individual families decide what combination works best for them.</p>
<p>Greg Scandlen<br />
President<br />
Consumers for Health Care Choices</p>
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		<title>By: Jane Hiebert-White</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2012</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Hiebert-White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Further debate on HSAs:  &lt;a href=&quot;http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspot.com/2007/04/more-than-10-million-are-now-using.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bob Laszewski&lt;/a&gt; asks on his blog today: &quot;Am I right in my pessimism that HSAs and HRAs are not going to have a fundamental impact on either health care cost or quality? Well, at 5% of the market and 10 million people, we should be at a point where we will soon have enough data to know. We won&#039;t have to argue about it much longer.&quot;

And &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2007/04/policy_hsasthe_.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Matthew Holt&lt;/a&gt; highlights Reinhardt&#039;s post and the HSA debate on The Health Care Blog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further debate on HSAs:  <a href="http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspot.com/2007/04/more-than-10-million-are-now-using.html" rel="nofollow">Bob Laszewski</a> asks on his blog today: &#8220;Am I right in my pessimism that HSAs and HRAs are not going to have a fundamental impact on either health care cost or quality? Well, at 5% of the market and 10 million people, we should be at a point where we will soon have enough data to know. We won&#8217;t have to argue about it much longer.&#8221;</p>
<p>And <a href="http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2007/04/policy_hsasthe_.html" rel="nofollow">Matthew Holt</a> highlights Reinhardt&#8217;s post and the HSA debate on The Health Care Blog.</p>
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		<title>By: bett martinez</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/comment-page-1/#comment-2007</link>
		<dc:creator>bett martinez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:57:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2007/04/12/insurance-a-closer-look-at-hsas/#comment-2007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am a broker/ and part time academic, trying in CA to convince a carrier to bid on a group of under 65 retirees in County Government. The General Accounting rules, GASB, no longer allow the County to lump the active employees in with the retirees without incurring a liability, so they are put out to a consultant, who is actually an insurance broker that takes a fee instead of a commission. For this, he gets called a consultant.

The carrier I want to bring in says it&#039;s not worth the risk to bid on this older group without the younger healthier set, and I must say, if one looks at a calculator, there&#039;s sense to this.  By the way, we are not talking HSA here.  The majority of employees are blue collar or have that mentality, and so we&#039;re looking at HMO type plans with relatively low copays.

What appeals to me about Prof. Reinhardt&#039;s ideas (well, I like a lot of them) in this instance is the idea of subsidies provided for those with chronic illness.  Could these subsidies be tied somehow to cost-control on the provider side, as well as to some lifestyle management component on the patient/consumer side?  I realize that this shared responsibility stuff is all the rage, and in spite of the one or two studies that are touted, find this kind of blame-the-victim mentality is not much more to be admired than the New Age California philosophy that implies if we don&#039;t control our thinking in a positive manner then we deserve our illnesses.

Still, there could be some benign work to help people with chronicities, or those in danger of same, to make what lifestyle changes would be amenable and affordable in a culturally appropriate manner.

Would appreciate any comments or suggestions you might offer in this vein, also, is there any possibility of turning this group into a study, since there are likely to be several carriers offering different designs?

One more thing:  In CA there is no such thing as embedded HSAs.  Therefore a single mom with a child purchasing a Family plan with a $2400 deductible would be subject to a $4800 deductible before anything beyond the one-time well-check would be covered.

I always write the mom on her plan and take the child out, presuming the child is healthy enough to pass underwriting, putting him/her on the lowest affordable deductible, and out-of-pocket maximum.  Co-pay is not such an issue as a healthy child will not have many doctors visits, whereas if the child has one hospitalization, or even a costly emergency room visit, s/he is likely to use the entire deductible and soon reach the out-of-pocket maximum.
If all providers are in the network (and there are often surprises that cannot be controlled - the surgeon one expected is out when surgery needs to be scheduled, or the anasthesiologist doesn&#039;t accept assignment) but IF all providers are in network, and other costs fall under &quot;usual and customary&quot; then the plan begins to pay 100%.

However, if we could have embedded deductibles, then those who could benefit somewhat by opening a Health Savings Account could have the separate deductibles, and the tax perks.

that&#039;s my 2 cents.  Very helpful insights for a complex problem.

Bett Martinez, M.Ed., Broker CA Lic#-0794317
well-being@pacbell.net; 510-526-0312]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a broker/ and part time academic, trying in CA to convince a carrier to bid on a group of under 65 retirees in County Government. The General Accounting rules, GASB, no longer allow the County to lump the active employees in with the retirees without incurring a liability, so they are put out to a consultant, who is actually an insurance broker that takes a fee instead of a commission. For this, he gets called a consultant.</p>
<p>The carrier I want to bring in says it&#8217;s not worth the risk to bid on this older group without the younger healthier set, and I must say, if one looks at a calculator, there&#8217;s sense to this.  By the way, we are not talking HSA here.  The majority of employees are blue collar or have that mentality, and so we&#8217;re looking at HMO type plans with relatively low copays.</p>
<p>What appeals to me about Prof. Reinhardt&#8217;s ideas (well, I like a lot of them) in this instance is the idea of subsidies provided for those with chronic illness.  Could these subsidies be tied somehow to cost-control on the provider side, as well as to some lifestyle management component on the patient/consumer side?  I realize that this shared responsibility stuff is all the rage, and in spite of the one or two studies that are touted, find this kind of blame-the-victim mentality is not much more to be admired than the New Age California philosophy that implies if we don&#8217;t control our thinking in a positive manner then we deserve our illnesses.</p>
<p>Still, there could be some benign work to help people with chronicities, or those in danger of same, to make what lifestyle changes would be amenable and affordable in a culturally appropriate manner.</p>
<p>Would appreciate any comments or suggestions you might offer in this vein, also, is there any possibility of turning this group into a study, since there are likely to be several carriers offering different designs?</p>
<p>One more thing:  In CA there is no such thing as embedded HSAs.  Therefore a single mom with a child purchasing a Family plan with a $2400 deductible would be subject to a $4800 deductible before anything beyond the one-time well-check would be covered.</p>
<p>I always write the mom on her plan and take the child out, presuming the child is healthy enough to pass underwriting, putting him/her on the lowest affordable deductible, and out-of-pocket maximum.  Co-pay is not such an issue as a healthy child will not have many doctors visits, whereas if the child has one hospitalization, or even a costly emergency room visit, s/he is likely to use the entire deductible and soon reach the out-of-pocket maximum.<br />
If all providers are in the network (and there are often surprises that cannot be controlled &#8211; the surgeon one expected is out when surgery needs to be scheduled, or the anasthesiologist doesn&#8217;t accept assignment) but IF all providers are in network, and other costs fall under &#8220;usual and customary&#8221; then the plan begins to pay 100%.</p>
<p>However, if we could have embedded deductibles, then those who could benefit somewhat by opening a Health Savings Account could have the separate deductibles, and the tax perks.</p>
<p>that&#8217;s my 2 cents.  Very helpful insights for a complex problem.</p>
<p>Bett Martinez, M.Ed., Broker CA Lic#-0794317<br />
<a href="mailto:well-being@pacbell.net">well-being@pacbell.net</a>; 510-526-0312</p>
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