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	<title>Comments on: Do Medicare And Medicaid Payment Rates Really Threaten Physicians with Bankruptcy?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/feed/?author=4104" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy</link>
	<description>The Policy Journal of the Health Sphere</description>
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		<title>By: Health Wonk Review: October surprise edition — US Health Crisis</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-226591</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Wonk Review: October surprise edition — US Health Crisis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-226591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Health Affairs Blog examines the claim that physicians lose money on Medicare patients and finds that such complaints are exaggerated. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Health Affairs Blog examines the claim that physicians lose money on Medicare patients and finds that such complaints are exaggerated. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Health Wonk Review: October surprise edition &#187; Health Business Blog</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-226588</link>
		<dc:creator>Health Wonk Review: October surprise edition &#187; Health Business Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-226588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Health Affairs Blog examines the claim that physicians lose money on Medicare patients and finds that such complaints are exaggerated. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Health Affairs Blog examines the claim that physicians lose money on Medicare patients and finds that such complaints are exaggerated. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dpearson</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-225900</link>
		<dc:creator>dpearson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 23:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-225900</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[creativegirl is correct about money being taken from doctors retroactively several years later and about patients not paying. I would like to add a comment about insurance of any kind eligibility - Check for eligibility to insure payment, they say?  Every insurance company has a disclaimer on their eligibility site that says that if they say the person in front of you has insurance it does not mean that they really have insurance.  Why on earth are doctors putting up with that?

Even with these problems that all doctors have I say try being a pediatrician.  We have these problems and we drool over Medicare reimbursement rates which are in general 140% greater than ours. Medicare rate cuts are not taken but Medicaid cuts happen.  Our practice gross is going down every year while seeing the same number of patients. 
RVUs for a child&#039;s physical are much lower than for an adult because - why? (I really don&#039;t understand this part - there are a myriad of screenings and tests you are responsible for that are &quot;bundled&quot;).  We are overrun by form requests from every kind of institution out there. (I think we should be able to charge the schools for the paperwork they generate for us.) 

Parents love their children dearly, but think your office should do everything for free and that they have no responsibility to understand their insurance or lack of it.  The AAP is always about &quot;the children,&quot; but never about what they can do for the pediatrician, and their website is all about the money, as opposed to the AAFP website.  I have two pieces of advice in this age of Medical Home (which translates to more unpaid work for the doctor) for medical students: 1) don&#039;t become a pediatrician, and if you do, 2)never take a capitated plan.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>creativegirl is correct about money being taken from doctors retroactively several years later and about patients not paying. I would like to add a comment about insurance of any kind eligibility &#8211; Check for eligibility to insure payment, they say?  Every insurance company has a disclaimer on their eligibility site that says that if they say the person in front of you has insurance it does not mean that they really have insurance.  Why on earth are doctors putting up with that?</p>
<p>Even with these problems that all doctors have I say try being a pediatrician.  We have these problems and we drool over Medicare reimbursement rates which are in general 140% greater than ours. Medicare rate cuts are not taken but Medicaid cuts happen.  Our practice gross is going down every year while seeing the same number of patients.<br />
RVUs for a child&#8217;s physical are much lower than for an adult because &#8211; why? (I really don&#8217;t understand this part &#8211; there are a myriad of screenings and tests you are responsible for that are &#8220;bundled&#8221;).  We are overrun by form requests from every kind of institution out there. (I think we should be able to charge the schools for the paperwork they generate for us.) </p>
<p>Parents love their children dearly, but think your office should do everything for free and that they have no responsibility to understand their insurance or lack of it.  The AAP is always about &#8220;the children,&#8221; but never about what they can do for the pediatrician, and their website is all about the money, as opposed to the AAFP website.  I have two pieces of advice in this age of Medical Home (which translates to more unpaid work for the doctor) for medical students: 1) don&#8217;t become a pediatrician, and if you do, 2)never take a capitated plan.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnLynch</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-225878</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnLynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-225878</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How refreshing - an American medical specialist who isn&#039;t genetically predisposed to whine about his lot in life. Congratulations!

Specialists in the U.S., of course, make roughly double what their peers in other developed countries make and also about double what their primary care counterparts make here. Yes, they have more intensive training and higher malpractice costs, but these are captured by your overhead calculations that leave them with net incomes reflecting these lucrative disparities. 

I did a similar comparison in my book on Obamacare (http://ourhealthcaresucks.com/obamacare-the-good-the-bad-and-the-missing/) based on a 2007 survey that showed the following:

All physicians   $273,000 avg net income            $240,000 at 100% Medicare rates

Cardiologists    $483,000 avg net income            $450,000 at 100% Medicare rates

Radiologists     $488,000 avg net income            $390,000 at 100% Medicare rates

While no one likes to take a pay cut, it&#039;s pretty clear that we&#039;ll never get our medical spending under control unless and until these incomes are reduced. And it&#039;s not just physician incomes, but their ripple effects. Every dollar of income to specialists generates $3-4 dollars in hospital or ancillary service costs.

Until your colleagues accept responsibility for milking our fee-for-service system for all it&#039;s worth, acknowledge that it&#039;s no longer sustainable, and take leadership roles in reforming the corrupted RUC process that perpetuates these unsustainable physician payments, I&#039;m afraid voices like yours will be lost in the wilderness. 

Please know, however, that many of us appreciate your willingness to stick your neck out and incur the wrath of far too many of your colleagues. If only more of them would follow your brave example.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How refreshing &#8211; an American medical specialist who isn&#8217;t genetically predisposed to whine about his lot in life. Congratulations!</p>
<p>Specialists in the U.S., of course, make roughly double what their peers in other developed countries make and also about double what their primary care counterparts make here. Yes, they have more intensive training and higher malpractice costs, but these are captured by your overhead calculations that leave them with net incomes reflecting these lucrative disparities. </p>
<p>I did a similar comparison in my book on Obamacare (<a href="http://ourhealthcaresucks.com/obamacare-the-good-the-bad-and-the-missing/" rel="nofollow">http://ourhealthcaresucks.com/obamacare-the-good-the-bad-and-the-missing/</a>) based on a 2007 survey that showed the following:</p>
<p>All physicians   $273,000 avg net income            $240,000 at 100% Medicare rates</p>
<p>Cardiologists    $483,000 avg net income            $450,000 at 100% Medicare rates</p>
<p>Radiologists     $488,000 avg net income            $390,000 at 100% Medicare rates</p>
<p>While no one likes to take a pay cut, it&#8217;s pretty clear that we&#8217;ll never get our medical spending under control unless and until these incomes are reduced. And it&#8217;s not just physician incomes, but their ripple effects. Every dollar of income to specialists generates $3-4 dollars in hospital or ancillary service costs.</p>
<p>Until your colleagues accept responsibility for milking our fee-for-service system for all it&#8217;s worth, acknowledge that it&#8217;s no longer sustainable, and take leadership roles in reforming the corrupted RUC process that perpetuates these unsustainable physician payments, I&#8217;m afraid voices like yours will be lost in the wilderness. </p>
<p>Please know, however, that many of us appreciate your willingness to stick your neck out and incur the wrath of far too many of your colleagues. If only more of them would follow your brave example.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean Antonucci</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-225253</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean Antonucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2012 20:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-225253</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr Rickert&#039;s article is challenging, on target, and well done. Creative girl, whose role in health care is unclear, comments on the  real difficulties that all providers face. The burden of billing, coding, and administrative trivia that falls on family docs is currently  close to unmanageable -- and sometimes imposed, may I say, by specialists who  begin a request for an appointment with the 20th century phrase, &quot;Do you have our form?&quot; disregarding the fact that my EMR cannot populate their form. Yet we make 20% or less!
 
Unfortunately, as a rural, solo, self-employed family doc, who has  superb quality data, I cannot make close to the so-called average salary of $189,00. Not close to even 20% of what orthos seem to be taking home. Yet we know that  primary care, when done well, lowers costs and improves outcomes (work of B Starfield).

For many years this country has forced primary care to work with two hands tied behind its back, crushed in a myriad of ways, struggling to offer the comprehensive longitudinal first access care that we do well and that benefits patients. Hearing that my colleagues in orthopedics may make a half a million dollars, when I cannot make 20% of that, does call for speaking out and examining the path to change. Even if malpractice risk is factored in, looking at average costs around the country, an orthopedic doc comes out at $100,00 a year, every year, ahead of the highest earning  family doc. This kind of disparity does not go unnoticed by medical students who head into specialties and leave the country with a dearth of what it needs most -- primary care. If we cannot solve this disparity ourselves, others will do it for us  

If we are to lower costs and improve outcomes int this country , if we are to  put patient care at front and center and reduce barriers to primary care, we  must realize that times in primary care are extremely desperate. Somehow or other we need to  be willing to not get our backs up nor get ugly, and be willing to  look  openly  at what has gone so badly wrong. Dr Rickert&#039;s courageous thoughtful work should begin a dialogue. Otherwise when one of YOU needs primary care  the lights will be out. and no one around to help.

Kudos to Dr Rickert for beginning a difficult conversation!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Rickert&#8217;s article is challenging, on target, and well done. Creative girl, whose role in health care is unclear, comments on the  real difficulties that all providers face. The burden of billing, coding, and administrative trivia that falls on family docs is currently  close to unmanageable &#8212; and sometimes imposed, may I say, by specialists who  begin a request for an appointment with the 20th century phrase, &#8220;Do you have our form?&#8221; disregarding the fact that my EMR cannot populate their form. Yet we make 20% or less!</p>
<p>Unfortunately, as a rural, solo, self-employed family doc, who has  superb quality data, I cannot make close to the so-called average salary of $189,00. Not close to even 20% of what orthos seem to be taking home. Yet we know that  primary care, when done well, lowers costs and improves outcomes (work of B Starfield).</p>
<p>For many years this country has forced primary care to work with two hands tied behind its back, crushed in a myriad of ways, struggling to offer the comprehensive longitudinal first access care that we do well and that benefits patients. Hearing that my colleagues in orthopedics may make a half a million dollars, when I cannot make 20% of that, does call for speaking out and examining the path to change. Even if malpractice risk is factored in, looking at average costs around the country, an orthopedic doc comes out at $100,00 a year, every year, ahead of the highest earning  family doc. This kind of disparity does not go unnoticed by medical students who head into specialties and leave the country with a dearth of what it needs most &#8212; primary care. If we cannot solve this disparity ourselves, others will do it for us  </p>
<p>If we are to lower costs and improve outcomes int this country , if we are to  put patient care at front and center and reduce barriers to primary care, we  must realize that times in primary care are extremely desperate. Somehow or other we need to  be willing to not get our backs up nor get ugly, and be willing to  look  openly  at what has gone so badly wrong. Dr Rickert&#8217;s courageous thoughtful work should begin a dialogue. Otherwise when one of YOU needs primary care  the lights will be out. and no one around to help.</p>
<p>Kudos to Dr Rickert for beginning a difficult conversation!!</p>
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		<title>By: HarrisMeyer</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-224897</link>
		<dc:creator>HarrisMeyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 18:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-224897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting article. Readers might also be interested in reading my recent Medscape article on physician compensation (free login required)
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/771433]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article. Readers might also be interested in reading my recent Medscape article on physician compensation (free login required)<br />
<a href="http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/771433" rel="nofollow">http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/771433</a></p>
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		<title>By: James Rickert</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-224838</link>
		<dc:creator>James Rickert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 15:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-224838</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks to Mr. Levine for his comment.  I also used MGMA&#039;s data.  Please click on the link describing physicians&#039; reimbursement.  Orthopedists enjoyed net pay of $514,000 at the top of our payment system while FPs earned $189,000 at the other end of our payment scales.  Medicaid payments, which are often about 30% lower than Medicare, were evaluated in the analysis; they were included in physician reimbursement figures; the only variable changed was substituting Medicare reimbursement for commercial insurance.  This was done to see whether docs could keep practicing under such a scenario.  I know that I could earn a very good living by just treating Medicare and Medicaid patients, but, as an orthopedic surgeon, I&#039;m lucky to be near the top of reimbursement schedules.
            Accounting practices that include, among other things, physician earnings as an expense can make it seem like medical practices are not making any money.  For instance, if a practice pays all of its physicians a million dollars per year, they can prove that they can&#039;t stay afloat on Medicare reimbursements, but the doctors are actually being paid quite well.  
            I agree that money is tight for FPs and sometimes for multispecialty groups with a large number of generalists.  The most obvious solution to this problem is to increase the value of RVUs for evaluation and management codes, even if, due to budgetary constraints, it is necessary to lower the RVU rate for procedural specialists like me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to Mr. Levine for his comment.  I also used MGMA&#8217;s data.  Please click on the link describing physicians&#8217; reimbursement.  Orthopedists enjoyed net pay of $514,000 at the top of our payment system while FPs earned $189,000 at the other end of our payment scales.  Medicaid payments, which are often about 30% lower than Medicare, were evaluated in the analysis; they were included in physician reimbursement figures; the only variable changed was substituting Medicare reimbursement for commercial insurance.  This was done to see whether docs could keep practicing under such a scenario.  I know that I could earn a very good living by just treating Medicare and Medicaid patients, but, as an orthopedic surgeon, I&#8217;m lucky to be near the top of reimbursement schedules.<br />
            Accounting practices that include, among other things, physician earnings as an expense can make it seem like medical practices are not making any money.  For instance, if a practice pays all of its physicians a million dollars per year, they can prove that they can&#8217;t stay afloat on Medicare reimbursements, but the doctors are actually being paid quite well.<br />
            I agree that money is tight for FPs and sometimes for multispecialty groups with a large number of generalists.  The most obvious solution to this problem is to increase the value of RVUs for evaluation and management codes, even if, due to budgetary constraints, it is necessary to lower the RVU rate for procedural specialists like me.</p>
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		<title>By: stlevine</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-224601</link>
		<dc:creator>stlevine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-224601</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As someone who has personally conducted several of those physician surveys, I find your logic specious and your math a bit off. First of all, you conveniently avoid talking about Medicaid payments, which in Texas are about 30 percent less than Medicare&#039;s.

This is from our Healthy Vision 2020 document (http://www.texmed.org/healthyvision if you want to read more):

The Medical Group Management Association’s (MGMA’s) data show that, for 2010, most physician groups were operating on razor-thin margins. MGMA each year compares physicians’ office costs and revenue in dollars per unit of service. (To simplify the accounting for the thousands of different types of services physicians provide, one unit of work is measured in relative value units or RVUs. This is a Medicare measure of the units of service produced. One unit of work is approximately the value of the simplest office visit for a new patient. Physician compensation is 30 percent of the total cost.) In 2010, physician-owned multispecialty groups brought in an average of $59 per unit of work while spending $60 to keep their clinics open, for an operating loss of $1 per unit of work. Family practice groups brought in less ($46 per unit of work) but only spent $45, for an operating profit of $1 per unit of work.  

To stay open, any business must collect enough revenues to cover costs. Especially for patients covered by government insurance programs, this isn’t happening for physicians. MGMA data show that Medicare pays only 61 percent of physicians’ average costs. Medicaid payment per unit of work varies, but for most services, Medicaid payments cover less than half of the average cost to provide services. Faced with losses on every service delivered, physician practices are often forced to limit services to Medicare and Medicaid patients if they cannot make up the losses elsewhere. Physicians in a number of Texas communities say they have no other options but to move or retire.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who has personally conducted several of those physician surveys, I find your logic specious and your math a bit off. First of all, you conveniently avoid talking about Medicaid payments, which in Texas are about 30 percent less than Medicare&#8217;s.</p>
<p>This is from our Healthy Vision 2020 document (<a href="http://www.texmed.org/healthyvision" rel="nofollow">http://www.texmed.org/healthyvision</a> if you want to read more):</p>
<p>The Medical Group Management Association’s (MGMA’s) data show that, for 2010, most physician groups were operating on razor-thin margins. MGMA each year compares physicians’ office costs and revenue in dollars per unit of service. (To simplify the accounting for the thousands of different types of services physicians provide, one unit of work is measured in relative value units or RVUs. This is a Medicare measure of the units of service produced. One unit of work is approximately the value of the simplest office visit for a new patient. Physician compensation is 30 percent of the total cost.) In 2010, physician-owned multispecialty groups brought in an average of $59 per unit of work while spending $60 to keep their clinics open, for an operating loss of $1 per unit of work. Family practice groups brought in less ($46 per unit of work) but only spent $45, for an operating profit of $1 per unit of work.  </p>
<p>To stay open, any business must collect enough revenues to cover costs. Especially for patients covered by government insurance programs, this isn’t happening for physicians. MGMA data show that Medicare pays only 61 percent of physicians’ average costs. Medicaid payment per unit of work varies, but for most services, Medicaid payments cover less than half of the average cost to provide services. Faced with losses on every service delivered, physician practices are often forced to limit services to Medicare and Medicaid patients if they cannot make up the losses elsewhere. Physicians in a number of Texas communities say they have no other options but to move or retire.</p>
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		<title>By: taokon</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-224403</link>
		<dc:creator>taokon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-224403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your conclusion is clearly not true for oncology. Just examined a 20-oncologist practice that found the following relating to Medicare. After paying all costs of overhead and staff there was a little over $2,000 (annually) to pay 20 oncologists.  If the practice was entirely covered by Medicare it would be bankrupt. Changes in Medicare payment to oncology has had 2 pronounced impacts since 2005. First, there has been tremendous consolidation, marked by closing cancer clinics and consolidating back into hospitals and health systems. This is driving up costs for patients. Read the series of articles recently run in the Charlotte Observer to get the facts. Second, Medicare reimbursement changes for cancer drugs is the cause of drug shortages. Read the Bloomberg report on that released Monday.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your conclusion is clearly not true for oncology. Just examined a 20-oncologist practice that found the following relating to Medicare. After paying all costs of overhead and staff there was a little over $2,000 (annually) to pay 20 oncologists.  If the practice was entirely covered by Medicare it would be bankrupt. Changes in Medicare payment to oncology has had 2 pronounced impacts since 2005. First, there has been tremendous consolidation, marked by closing cancer clinics and consolidating back into hospitals and health systems. This is driving up costs for patients. Read the series of articles recently run in the Charlotte Observer to get the facts. Second, Medicare reimbursement changes for cancer drugs is the cause of drug shortages. Read the Bloomberg report on that released Monday.</p>
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		<title>By: James Rickert</title>
		<link>http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2012/10/02/do-medicare-and-medicaid-payment-rates-really-threaten-physicians-with-bankruptcy/comment-page-1/#comment-223969</link>
		<dc:creator>James Rickert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 01:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://healthaffairs.org/blog/?p=23684#comment-223969</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comment.  I am a practicing orthopedic surgeon myself, and I personally know several hundred more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment.  I am a practicing orthopedic surgeon myself, and I personally know several hundred more.</p>
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